Curse

Theus · Jun 15, 2007, 08:21 PM // 20:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Evilsod

Course it can't be long till some fanboy comes along to whine about how 'its because they're focusing on GW2/GWEN'. Why? If they keep this crap up they will have lost much of there player base before they can actually release them. Hard Mode was a huge let down for almost everyone. Its only use now seems to be mass farming improved gold drop-rate after they suceeded in pissing off almost the entire community with loot-scaling. The GW2/GWEN playing card is getting used all too often now as an excuse as to why things aren't been resolved. Of course the only thing we ever hear this from is Gaile. As the OP stated Gaile seems to have little to no PvP experience. But how do we even know she has any PvE experience? I'm still yet to see screenshots of her actually doing anything in PvE, has she even tried Hard Mode? Does she actually have a clue what people are so annoyed about?

Yeah..That GW:EN/GW2 copout is real lame.Especially when you ask yourself,who wants to buy an Expansion to a game where they were fed up with the way the game's been handled?

GuildWars CAN be a good game.But as of right now,Anet seems to be ignoring glaring issues that community have been asking for, for a while now.

Buster · Jun 15, 2007, 08:21 PM // 20:21

There is nothing wrong with the community relations here. The problem is that some people ask for too much. Just enjoy the game we like to play. Is that so hard ?

Evilsod · Jun 15, 2007, 08:22 PM // 20:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chop it Off

/applaud.

this post and this post alone should be stickied on top of every part of these forums.

Until all of those people get themselves onto forums so they can voice there opinions, they have no say in what goes on in game. If they object to it, they can sign upto a fan forum and bloody well say so. Bitching about it ingame amongst people who also don't voice there opinions does what exactly?

Firebaall · Jun 15, 2007, 08:22 PM // 20:22

Thanks to the OP for posting a polite complaint. Any other way (considering the subject of the topic), would have been shut down by the mods/admins here.

I feel the points raised are slanted too much towards PVP. However....each point is just as valid in the PVE arena.

I also share the notion that the Anet PR isn't doing their job. Back during the HUGE HM drying up thread, all we could eek out of Anet's PR mounted to the relevence of "my cat's breath smells like cat food".

Any responses that Gaile gave were not relevent to the disscusion (and they rarely are). Hey, it's easier to answer questions that don't have any responsibility to real discussion. I just had enough of the song and dance and said F#$% IT...... let sleeping dogs lie right?

I would almost prefer they didn't post on fan forums. At least that way one knew where they stood. i.e. ignoring the community.

So what kind of mini pet do you want?

Darksun · Jun 15, 2007, 08:24 PM // 20:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ravious

OP: Your post is pure conjecture. If an A.Net employee (or even ex-intern) came on making the same claims of miscommunication, I might agree.

You don't know how Gaile translates information to the rest of her company. You don't know what NCSoft puts the kabosh on even though A.Net wants to do it. You don't know what the A.Net brass vetos because it is not in their vision. You don't have a computer next to your work station with constantly running Obs Mode to watch metagame. You don't have access to volumes of statistics that spell out how the game is actually played. Etc. ad infinitum.

Until anybody has that kind of knowledge, they have no basis to say what should be ESPECIALLY where it deals with an alleged communication breakdown.

It has been said time and time again that what is most helpful to A.Net are posts that say: [feature] is not fun because [reasoning]. That's all they need. Most people skip the "because" portion and go straight into how to fix it, if that.

My heart goes out to Gaile because she wouldn't lash out unless she got hurt, and she would not get hurt unless she had some stake in how the community feels about her and her company. The fact that she does speaks volumes, and I for one am grateful for everything she does.

This should be the new disclaimer for everyone wanting to point out problems in the game. There is nothing wrong with doing it, by my goodness does it need a reality check. What we think needs to be changed, needs to be put in perspective. I don't agree with all the nerfs, but the numbers may veto that opinion.

King Volcano · Jun 15, 2007, 08:27 PM // 20:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aera

Assigning a person to the CR on behalf of the PvP side who actually KNOWS stuff about PvP (I'm sure there's enough top GvG players who would love to volunteer ) would fix almost all problems.

That would solve nothing: PVP skill balance affects PVE play and vice versa. You cant think of PVP and PVE seperately since they use the same mechanics yet operate in totally different environments.

Soul of the Scythe · Jun 15, 2007, 08:31 PM // 20:31

Threads like this kinda make me throw up a little in my mouth.

First off, Guild Wars is not a service, it is a product. You PAID, past tense for the product. Them providing Customer Service to try and keep you playing is not something they have to do. Plenty of games got along just fine with little to no customer service - look at Diablo 2, sooooo many things wrong with that game, yet people still play it(myself included), because it is a great game. You paid for the Game, you didn't pay for the updates. They have your money, if you leave, it really doesn't matter to them. With a game like WoW, you can cancel your subscription and take that moeny away from them each month, but even then that's nothing to them.

The point is, Anet has no responsibility when it comes to game updates. They promised them, but us expecting these updates to appease everyone(PvP and PvE) is ridiculous and unfair to them. I understand that if they are gonna have a Customer Relations Department, they gotta be committed to it and do what they can to appease both aspects of the game.

In order to appease both PvPer's and PvEer's they need to separate the skills and attributes and such for each and have a CR person for PvP and PvE.

I fully support this idea but DO NOT support the manner in which it was suggested. The personal attacks are not necessary and pointing out faults in how Gaile may or may not have handled certain situations is not the correct way to handle it. Being a CR rep is not an easy job, especially when there are so many people to listen to.

Jetdoc · Jun 15, 2007, 08:36 PM // 20:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by Evilsod

Until all of those people get themselves onto forums so they can voice there opinions, they have no say in what goes on in game.

Actually, they do by their actions, not by their complaints.

As I stated above, posts on a forum are likely a relatively minor consideration by A-Net in making game mechanic changes. I'm relatively certain that the developers and their staff continually monitor both PvP and PvE arenas for:

(1) Amount of players participating in that area;
(2) The prevalence of skills and builds being utilized by those players;
(3) The prevalance of abuses of certain skill combinations.

A-Net has much more access to this type of data than any individual player or group of players can provide to A-Net via a post on a forum.

For example, on gwonline, one of Tiyuri's major PvP complaints is that the hex-based metagame needs to be nerfed. I'd say that over 100 individual posters have posted in that thread, with a majority of them supporting a "nerf" to certain hex skills and/or a buff to hex removal.

What he and the other posters in that thread do not have access to is what is happening in all of those PvP matches that they do NOT participate in. Has A-Net analyzed the concern posted in that thread? Possibly. Should they make a change? According to Tiyuri..."absolutely. The entire PvP community has chimed in, and a nerf is in order."

Unfortunately, the outcries of 100 posters in a sea of millions of sold copies probably gets outweighed by what is actually happening in game.

Ec]-[oMaN · Jun 15, 2007, 08:42 PM // 20:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by Soul of the Scythe

Threads like this kinda make me throw up a little in my mouth.

First off, Guild Wars is not a service, it is a product. You PAID, past tense for the product. Them providing Customer Service to try and keep you playing is not something they have to do.

I die inside everytime people like you show up with this same OP. It's one of the big reasons we have WALMARTS filled with shitty messy stores, crappy poorly made products, the list goes on. People like you buy crap don't say anything and keep fueling the fire. If anything people should voice their OP, for the better of all products in general, make a stand, boycott. Let it be none who makes a crap product and do something to help better everyone. The game industry is no exception.

Tozen · Jun 15, 2007, 08:42 PM // 20:42

Honestly, what is this thread doing open? This has simply gone WAY too far.

OP, I understand your frustration with certain issues, but seriously man, ArenaNet has the BEST community relations I have EVER seen in a game. I've played plenty of online games and the amount of content that ANet has put into this game at our request is staggering when compared to the competition.

Your proof for Gaile having no PvP knowledge is completely unconvincing. I can't comment on whether it is true or not because I don't know, but you'll need better evidence then that.

Honestly, you make it sound like GW is completely broken. NEWS FLASH: It ISN'T. I play both PvE and PvP and I have lots of fun in both. Of course, I see areas that could be improved, some of which have been mentioned by the community in large threads. However, I really don't see any reason to get THIS upset about this.

Last, please don't ever post such a direct, negative response to a single individual EVER again. I can't enforce that, but really man, there are PLENTY of other ways to criticize something without taking shots at others.

unbound00 · Jun 15, 2007, 08:43 PM // 20:43

Quote:

Apparently, because the community is unhappy at being ignored, at huge balance issues going untreated - and indeed - apparently uncommunicated! It's the communities fault "The shame is, you've killed it for the rest."

Sorry man, but you are delirious. The community's behavior has nothing to do with being ignored, and if you think Anet ignores you than you just have no idea what being ignored is. Try talking to a wall and you'll see how being ignored feels like. Anet does nothing but listen and ask for opinions and suggestions. The reason the community is unhappy is because most of this comunity is very very imature. They can't handle not having everything their way, even when the majority of Anet's action is taken because players brought their issues to them; they are unhappy either because their particular issue was not addressed at that moment or as soon as they'd like, or because it was not addressed the way they wanted it to be. They are even more imature when they then approach the issue by means of insults and flaming, sarcasm, etc, much like a child would nag their parents by making a fuss or an angst teen whose only means of dealing with anything is aggression.

The community is imature, much like a student who insults their teacher and demands reparation when they think the teacher gave them the wrong grade, and is mad later because the teacher wouldn't listen and is obviously wrong, is on his case, making it on purpose, or any other unfounded reasoning that will justify his own innapropriate actions.

Chthon · Jun 15, 2007, 08:45 PM // 20:45

1. I'm somewhat surprised that this thread is still open. It's a testament to the mods integrity that such a sensitive topic wasn't closed simply because of who it might upset.

2. The OP is just dripping with malice. It makes some points that I'm afraid I have to agree with, but I get the feeling that there's some deeper personal agenda going on here that I don't see.

3. Stop blaming PvE for a-net being out of touch with PvP. They are even more out of touch with us -- and we are even more pissed off about it -- than you are. The outrage over SR being broken for PvE is by far the longest thread ever in the history of this forum or any other. And don't say they "listened to the PvE whiners." They sure as hell did not listen to us -- look at the upcoming so-called "fix" for SR that leaves it nearly as broken as it is now. Armor stacking is another great example: At least they acknowledged that WY + SYG was a problem in PvP. They completely ignored the fact they were destroying one of the few viable strategies for PvE's hard mode when they gutted the entire mechanic to deal with just 2 skills. So, yeah, you've got a legitimate complaint: a-net is woefully out of touch with PvP. But they are even more out of touch with PvE.

4. Gaile is doing her job just fine. The problem is that her job doesn't include certain tasks that no one else is doing either. As far as I know, Gaile has never held herself out as a highly sophisticated conduit for highly technical balance concerns. As OP points out, rather rudely, she's not really qualified for that task anyway. But interacting with us on that level is not part of her job. Gaile's role has always been press releases and sunshine and congo lines. And that's fine. Congo lines make some people really happy. The problem is that a-net also needs to have someone interacting with the community on the technical balance concerns level, and they don't have that. A-net needs someone, who has adequately detailed knowledge of the mechanics to tell the grain from the dross, to be distilling and communicating the community's legitimate, well-thought-out concerns, reactions, and suggestions to the dev team, and then relay the dev team's potential responses back to the community for commentary. Contrary to OP's selfish, elitist attitude, feedback from both PvP and PvE is necessary. As I've said elsewhere, PvP is frequently more sensitive to balance concerns, but PvE is 9x more important; PvE needs to be considered, and often with decisive weight, on those rare occasions that it is truly sensitive to a particular balance concern.

5. This...

Quote:

Originally Posted by lennymon

She get's paid not by the community, but by Anet.

.. is wrong. It reflects the sad psychological conditioning of someone so used to being treated like crap by large corporations that you've become accustomed to it and expect it as the norm because you are too young, or too poorly traveled, or both, to understand that it is neither "normal" nor is it right. Gaile, just like every other person at a-net, from Strain and O'Brien on down, ultimately collects her pay from her customers. She, just like every other person at a-net, is ultimately answerable to us. There was a time when I thought that a-net understood that, and listened to customer feedback both because it was the right thing to do, and because it was a way to ensure the future business that comes with customer satisfaction. Sadly, that time has ended. I have little doubt that the only way I have left to speak loudly enough that they will pay attention is with my wallet. So be it. I'd prefer that they'd choose to make themselves answerable to their customers in some way short of the customer completely ending the relationship, but, one way or the other, they are answerable to us.

6. This is true. It is perhaps the greatest truth that can come from these forums.

Quote:

Originally Posted by rohara

People only complain because they love the game and don't want to see it ruined.

Code=007 · Jun 15, 2007, 08:46 PM // 20:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Soul of the Scythe

Threads like this kinda make me throw up a little in my mouth.

First off, Guild Wars is not a service, it is a product. You PAID, past tense for the product. Them providing Customer Service to try and keep you playing is not something they have to do. Plenty of games got along just fine with little to no customer service - look at Diablo 2...

pretty wrong it's a service, diablo 2 is a product, plus free battlenet service, I can pull the plug to the internet connection and can still play for what I paid for.

Evilsod · Jun 15, 2007, 09:06 PM // 21:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jetdoc

Actually, they do by their actions, not by their complaints.

As I stated above, posts on a forum are likely a relatively minor consideration by A-Net in making game mechanic changes. I'm relatively certain that the developers and their staff continually monitor both PvP and PvE arenas for:

(1) Amount of players participating in that area;
(2) The prevalence of skills and builds being utilized by those players;
(3) The prevalance of abuses of certain skill combinations.

That still means nothing. If they don't voice there opinions on anything they have absolutely no say in what should happen, whether they approve or not. If they do infact really oppose the changes made, tough, they should've commented on it on a forum. I'm pretty sure Anet knows exactly what skills are been used alot in PvE, something tells me top of the list is 'Protective Spirit' and 'Shield of Absorption' atm. All 3 things you listed mean nothing. Amount of players? So what... 99.9% of people entering Zehlon Reach are Mo/Ds running identical skillbars farming the same enemies. That must make for an awesome statistic at meeting about what needs to be altered.

Quote:

For example, on gwonline, one of Tiyuri's major PvP complaints is that the hex-based metagame needs to be nerfed. I'd say that over 100 individual posters have posted in that thread, with a majority of them supporting a "nerf" to certain hex skills and/or a buff to hex removal.

What he and the other posters in that thread do not have access to is what is happening in all of those PvP matches that they do NOT participate in. Has A-Net analyzed the concern posted in that thread? Possibly. Should they make a change? According to Tiyuri..."absolutely. The entire PvP community has chimed in, and a nerf is in order."

What other statistics do Anet have to go on exactly? Its quite obvious the majority of PvPers that post on the forum absolutely despise the current Meta of Hex and Rits. Extrapolate that, you still get a majority of people hating this meta. Sorry but your logic is no better than Tiyuri's that you complain about so much. You say that a limited number of people saying this meta sucks just isn't enough. Yet theres a varied range of people posting here. And you simply counter this with 'people who don't voice there opinions must be all against this so we must therefore do nothing'. The latter is complete bullshit. Theres a reason why in weddings people say 'speak now or forever hold your peace'. If nobody speaks does the vicker then turn around and say 'well nobody said anything but there might be people not here that disagree so, its off'.

You can't instantly assume people outside these forums don't agree with anything and do nothing, thats more moronic than doing something based on the opinion of 1 person. That point has absolutely no weight to it, you may think its logical, but its not.

Yichi · Jun 15, 2007, 09:15 PM // 21:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by Darksun

I'm not sure I've seen this information.

Can you give us a link or some information showing the game is "dying"? # of US/Asian Players decreasing by day/month? Anywhere?

Simple. Go to www.guildwars.com and find the guild ladder. take the number of active competitive american guilds and add them to the number of active competitive asian guilds. then multiply these numbers by 3. youll get roughly the number of active competitive european guilds....

Its a known fact to anyone in the higher end PVP community that a lot of the good american and korean guilds/players in those guilds have quit due to the lack of skill balances/gameplay updates/stale meta/no championchips.

lennymon · Jun 15, 2007, 09:22 PM // 21:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chthon

5. This...

.. is wrong. It reflects the sad psychological conditioning of someone so used to being treated like crap by large corporations that you've become accustomed to it and expect it as the norm because you are too young, or too poorly traveled, or both, to understand that it is neither "normal" nor is it right. Gaile, just like every other person at a-net, from Strain and O'Brien on down, ultimately collects her pay from her customers. She, just like every other person at a-net, is ultimately answerable to us. There was a time when I thought that a-net understood that, and listened to customer feedback both because it was the right thing to do, and because it was a way to ensure the future business that comes with customer satisfaction. Sadly, that time has ended. I have little doubt that the only way I have left to speak loudly enough that they will pay attention is with my wallet. So be it. I'd prefer that they'd choose to make themselves answerable to their customers in some way short of the customer completely ending the relationship, but, one way or the other, they are answerable to us.

You seem intelligent at least superficially, so perhaps I'll attempt (yeah debate never was my strong suit) to point out what I see as your weak points here.
1) I'm 41, and speak several languages, lived on 3 continents and work in gene therapy research.
2) 'ultimately answerable to us' yes this is true, however it cannot invalidate what I said as they are not mutually exclusive. If the boss says to Gaile: do this, and she does It greatly improves her chances of maintaining a working relationship with her boss and thereby her job yes? If the company goes under because of it, who's fault is it? Gaile's or her boss'?

Obviously 2 is the key point here, 1 just points out that you may wanna work on your assumptions.

@Sod and anyone else arguing about Forum membership voicery. I think the major assumption you all are making which is far from proven is that forum posters, and for that matter players in general *do* have a significant voice in how the game is changed edited upgraded or developed. Yeah perhaps the nice folks at Anet come to the forums to double check their findings who knows really though.

Chilly Ress · Jun 15, 2007, 09:24 PM // 21:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gawa

*frown* Not only is your thread bordering on one large personal attack, it is arrogant to think that you have a right to publically question and effectively incite on a large scale, an investigation into if someone is doing their job as how you would like it done.

I will quote this absent minded post as well. I am paying ArenaNet for a product. I have every right to question whether they are doing their part and making the product a good one or a bad one. The thing about America is, we have rights, over in Ireland, if y'all are communist or whatever, you may not have rights, but in America, we do, and I agree completely that Gaile does a fairly poor job addressing the community and the entire CR over at ArenaNet may need to be reestablished and revamped. Obviously, they are the ones that relay what the community is voicing, and the reason Guild Wars is dying is because of the craptastic changes made by themselves. Many people have left the game and many more are in the process.

Take for example my guild, all of us are decent PvP players and are holding a decent rank on the GvG ladder. Since we are into GvG, we have many contacts in other top guilds and nearly everyone that you talk to is fed up with the downright STUPID AND IGNORANT changes that have been made to the game. The GvG situation is horrible. Once certain guild that has been dominating the ladder since the beginning now have its main guild and several smurfs (guilds with players 2nd and 3rd accounts that they practice in) in the top 100. I think it is around 6 or 7 guilds that are in the top 20 American guilds are actually just smurfs of another guild. You can from the number of people active here on this forum and in the game that the game is losing players right and left, yet ArenaNet continues to have terrible CR in my opinion and many others it would seem.

If ArenaNet really wants to make Guild Wars a good game again, they would make more threads here, on other forums, or on their site with links on the login page to polls to what the community thinks should be done. I have been a loyal Guild Wars player of 25 months and have no plans to quit. But, ever since Factions was released the CR has gotten progressively worse it would seem and the people making the decisions at ArenaNet are obviously making wrong and ignorant decisions which can be obviously cited by the dramatically decreasing number of players and the increasing number of threads criticizing them on here and other forums. It seems they have just abandoned the game. If ArenaNet would like a model to follow, Gaile can tell them about how Mythic still strongly supports DAoC even with their newer MMO's coming out.

ArenaNet is actually starting to remind me of one court case. A dozen teens rented a limousine for New Year's and the limo arrived 30 mins late to pick them up, was trashed inside, and never picked them up from the club where they went. The company collected the money, delivered their product, trashy it being, then ditched the customers after it had its profits. ArenaNet is releasing one more expansion with limited content (only 2 skills or so per attribute with it) and is just lying back in their hammocks playing with their money. ArenaNet has no incentive to keep their customers happy at the moment as their is no monthly fee. It seems that thousands of people post on forums with suggestions and when an update does eventually come out, being 2-4 weeks late normally, ArenaNet addresses very few of the concerns and makes worthless changes that no one cares about.

Gaile, the community, the CR at ArenaNet, ArenaNet, I am addressing you with pity. You have an unhappy community, as you can hopefully see, and you need to do something about and not keep making these worthless changes to the game and having people that make these decisions that make your customers unhappy. Thank you for 2 years of happy gaming and hopefully many more.

Thank you again.

~Chill

Veteran Guild Wars Player and Unhappy Veteran Guild Wars Player.

MSecorsky · Jun 15, 2007, 09:30 PM // 21:30

When it comes to balances, changes and updates, there are exactly two things that are considered.

1. What the community wants.
2. What the game actually needs.

Gaile has the unenviable task of being a liaison between a community that demands what it wants (even though as a whole the community can't agree on what that is) and the developers delivering what the game needs.

Everyone who plays this game does so from exactly one perspective, their own. That being said, what everyone sees as best for the game obviously isn't what is actually best for the game. Look at Soul Reaping! For years the talk has been how overpowered SR is. When a needed balance is implemented (or before fully being implemented in this case) you have enough whine being generated to put Napa Valley out of business.

This is ANets business. They're not going to blindly implement changes that will take food off of their tables or clothes off of their kids backs. I can only begin to imagine the work that goes into each update like this.

GloryFox · Jun 15, 2007, 09:34 PM // 21:34

Balance is not a matter of PvE. The experience is: and what many PvP players do not realize is that the PvE experience is just as important as the PvP competition. That is why we PvE people purchase guild Wars. Its an escape from reality and the competition of real life. Its our market for purchasing this product.

PvE players in truth don't give a rats ass about balance. We want to feel like an Unstopable Tank, a Master of Fire, Commanding General, Subversive Mystic, Undead Master, etc etc...

When the reality of competitions collides with fantasy, those who choose fantasy will end up looking somewhere else for entertainment. Unless there is a happy medium. Both sides must sacrifice in order to survive in the same game enviroment, or both must split. It is the hope of ANET that both PvE and PvP can co exist but that cannot continue if one side believes the other side has more attention than the other.

It is the belief of most PvE players that Fantasy is being outweighed by competition. SR nerf, Ritual Lord nerf, Motivation nerf, Armor cap, etc. These nerfs affect the PvE illusion of fantasy.

Fact is PvP is about the reality of competition whereas PvE is about the Fantasy of escape.

We who play PvE are discouraged by the continued assault upon PvE fantasy and we love GW as much as the PvP community does. What else can we do but to draw a line sometimes.

I remember the open beta they had months ago when they moved Blood Song into the channeling line. There was a 90+ page discussion why this was a bad idea and where AwL was the better move for both PvP and PvE. That was a happy medium both sides could agree upon. It went on def ears. That alone created mass frustration in both sides of the Ritualist fence.

Does ANET listen? Sometimes but I would say no it does not listen the game base the majority of the time or only listens to a select few.

ANET and any game company is in the Customer Service business the worse the CR to the players the more likely the player base will move on.

Gaile has a tough job and I can understand her neutrality in PvP and PvE disagreements. BUT one wonders what the Devs are thinking when they make decisions that make absolutely no sense when there were better solutions brought forth from the community itself. Solutions both the PvP and PvE community can agree upon.

VitisVinifera · Jun 15, 2007, 09:47 PM // 21:47

tiyuri: thank you. I feel *EXACTLY* the same way you do, and I'm 100% PVE.

/signed

inde: please keep this open. We've seen what might amount to a response, albeit in another thread, from AP. I consider this a very relevant issue, with the near complete lack of communication between Anet and the community, and some ill feelings going around. I just hope people don't get into pvp vs pve or poster vs poster attacks, and keep it to the issue at hand.